Netley Marsh Steam and Craft Show 2014

[Andrew Gibb]

Originally Posted by bertie8ton

No 12470 type 'DT' of 1929. Allegedly used as a donor after returning from Australia about 2004. Only about 50% of the engine was original when I bought it in 2007. Suspicious bolt holes in the bottom of the smokebox revealed it was dispatched from Rochester in tractor format and converted to a roller using aussie-made rolls/forks/headstock etc. I've had to make both axles, turntable and all the wheels ( Andy Loader made the rims). The chimney base didn't arrive in time to be fitted but was on display. All the above to original A + P drawings. Supposedly based on standard D type roller but some dimensions defy the laws of physics. Bigger bores, stay tubes, axles. The front bracket is just so we can get it on the wagon.

G'day mate. You certainly have done a nice job. However the engine was built as a roller and worked as a roller in Sydney.

As with many Aveling rollers sold to Australia, to avoid higher import tariffs for imported steam rollers (as there was a small roller manufacturing base in Australia that the Federal Government was trying to protect) the agent Noyes Bros imported the rollers on TE wheels, then added the locally made roller components here. Apart from the Works photo of one looking silly with the strange chimney base casting (see Michael Lane's Aveling book), I don't think there is any record of any actually staying on TE wheels once in Australia. If a customer wanted one like that, they would have bought a convertible. It's a no brainer.

So you have got yourself a wrecked roller now converted to a traction engine. No more, no less.

Cheers,

G.

[bertie8ton]

So:
1)it is intimated that I have been less than truthful about how much of the sub-assemblies I've had to make.
2) I'm vilified for trying to put an incomplete basket case back (as near as possible) to the ex-works condition based on the original order book entry.
Nice

[Andrew Gibb]

Well it was built as an incomplete ROLLER in England, put on temporary wheels to slip through Australian customs masquerading as a tractor, to then be finished off as a ROLLER in Sydney. Then it was sent out to the council that used it all it's working life as a ROLLER. Then kids played on it in a park as a ROLLER. Then it was bought for preservation as a ROLLER in Sydney. Then sold as a ROLLER to the UK.

Sound pretty much like a ROLLER. If you have convinced yourself that the Aveling works built it as a proper tractor then you are kidding yourself. If the customer wanted a tractor it would have been built properly in the works as a tractor in the first place. I am not sure if I have seen much Aveling literature spruiking their D Type tractors. Each engine would have spent maybe 3 months in fake form while being shipped out, and would never have worked a day in their life as tractor.

How you restore it is your business and it looks like you are doing a nice job. I just don't like to see Australian engine history re-written to suit oneself. I would have thought there would be some Aveling Roller parts available over there.

I would guess all these mocked up engines had a bolt on temporary perch bracket and other arrangement for a quick completion as a Roller. You would assume the wheels were shipped back to Rochester as Noyes Bros wouldn't need a pile of hundreds of wheels, with approx. 80 DT and FT rollers sent here.

I suppose my dad should throw away the rolls from his FT and put it back to works spec as well? And all the other people with DT/FTs. They will be pumped to know they have had a proper tractor all this time!

Anyway is an interesting side line to the history of rollers built by Aveling and shows what was done to get around import duties.

[Patent motor]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gibb

G'day mate. You certainly have done a nice job. However the engine was built as a roller and worked as a roller in Sydney.



As with many Aveling rollers sold to Australia, to avoid higher import tariffs for imported steam rollers (as there was a small roller manufacturing base in Australia that the Federal Government was trying to protect) the agent Noyes Bros imported the rollers on TE wheels, then added the locally made roller components here. Apart from the Works photo of one looking silly with the strange chimney base casting (see Michael Lane's Aveling book), I don't think there is any record of any actually staying on TE wheels once in Australia. If a customer wanted one like that, they would have bought a convertible. It's a no brainer.



So you have got yourself a wrecked roller now converted to a traction engine. No more, no less.



Cheers,



G.

You seem to have two stories here one you say it's a roller and the other a traction engine !!!! The works order say Tractor so put it back to tractor not a half cocked Australian roller

[Fodenwagon]

At the end of the day, it's the owners choice to do what he wants with it. If his history says it was a tractor then put it as a tractor!
Don't worry about some Aussie John, he obviously gets his kicks sat behind a keyboard, I take my hat off to you on what you have achieved so far and I'm looking forward to the finished TRACTOR at the show in the future.

[8_10 Brass Cleaner]

Just had a read up on these DT's in Lane's book. (I had forgotten how dreadfull the book it).

It notes that they were 3 shaft (despite the engine illustrated 11455 obviously having 4), and that they were fitted with ''roller type sloping firebox door'', presumably the smokebox. These errors are obviously from the author not knowing what he is looking at.

It also goes on to say that the later the ''boiler, engine unit and back axle would be imported from england'' the rest made locally by Schmidt & Muller, Ironfounders in Sydney. Despite the errors above, you would have thought this statement had some basis in fact. The reference is to a Steaming article.

What do the erection sheets/order book for these engines say?, presumably they reference a drawing number for the parts made and supplied, and are silent when the parts were not made?. Presumably by looking at the sheets for the sequence of 70 it would be possible to see when they stopped sending 'tractors' and sent the boiler units etc.

[Timothy Hackworth Jr]

Is The Rambler back for good now then? Once a Warwickshire engine with Ray Sanders of Lower Quinton; if it is now resident in the UK again I look forward to seeing it out and about in the future.

[Fodenwagon]

Originally Posted by Timothy Hackworth Jr

Is The Rambler back for good now then? Once a Warwickshire engine with Ray Sanders of Lower Quinton; if it is now resident in the UK again I look forward to seeing it out and about in the future.

Yes she is back for good.

[forester_neil]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gibb

As with many Aveling rollers sold to Australia, to avoid higher import tariffs for imported steam rollers (as there was a small roller manufacturing base in Australia that the Federal Government was trying to protect) the agent Noyes Bros imported the rollers on TE wheels, then added the locally made roller components here. Apart from the Works photo of one looking silly with the strange chimney base casting (see Michael Lane's Aveling book), I don't think there is any record of any actually staying on TE wheels once in Australia. If a customer wanted one like that, they would have bought a convertible. It's a no brainer.

Despite the restoration/conservation/preservation argument here, I think it's bloody funny to see that even 100 years ago, people and even Local Governments were trying to dodge taxes! There's also the interesting issue of local market and manufacturing protection through import tariffs, which strikes a pretty raw nerve at the moment out here if you drive a Holden, Ford, Toyota, Mitsubishi, etc etc

Trying to minimise tax was a driver behind the design of light-weight steam tractors in England. Trying to minimise tax or dodge import duties changed how Aveling exported engines to Australia - that in itself is interesting enough to ensure that the information remains correct and within context of this engine.

Cheers