What Kills Rallies?
 

When you think about it, a lot of rallies have disappeared over the years for one reason or another. I know that I had a long spell away from the hobby due to work commitments and getting married etc in fact the period that I was in the "wilderness" was from 1993 to 2010.

Whilst i realise that some rallies were replaced by others such as I believe that the one at Merrymeet in Cornwall was replaced by the larger event at Boconnoc, what happened to the rallies at places like Newton Abbot Racecourse, Yelverton and Plymouth Hoe. Woodlands Leisure Centre near Dartmouth use to hold an annual event as did the now closed National Shire Horse Centre at Yealmpton in South Devon. Has the one formerly held at the World of Country Life at Exmouth ceased to exist? The latter was always poorly publicised and took place on the same weekend as the WESES one.

Are there any locations which could possibly see the re-introduction of rallies which took place years ago?

Same in North East ( Northumberland, Durham, North Yorkshire. )
Quite a few rallys have dissapeard.
Chester-le-St rally, Barnard Castle, Stanhope I think was run by people who run Weardale railway.
Their are probable more.

I can some up the main points for rallies dissappearing.

H & S
Insurance costs
Complaints from locals.

Successive years of Rain.

at some shows the attitude of the organizers dose very little to boost their exhibitor numbers. To answer the question "What Kills Shows?" depends on a number of factors, and in most cases, is normally unique to each show. Of course there are some smaller shows that have finished simply because the main organizer has had to stop and no one else takes it over. Another is loss of venue,

I blame those dogs that tow wooden trailers for killing rallies.....

Money and greed.

Not necessarily from engine owners either.

Did it all go wrong when they started trying to make money and charging people to see engines?

Some of the best doo's we go to we get naff all for going, and Joey Bloggs pays the same amount to see us?

What about the man with half a dozen oil cans or three old bikes?

We're doing it wrong!

Oh wait hold on a minute. I have the answer to the original question.... Conversions & The NTET!!

The answer is 42.

If you get it you are showing your age, LOL

Why is it each time I have posted a quick reply it gets lost and I'm transferred to 'Events'?

As this has now registered I'll add -

Maybe this has something to do with uncommunicative / unfriendly enginemen : we can do a lot of good by talking to the public.

Now listen hear young man.

All this criticizing of the club by unhelpful individuals such as your self is really getting on the tits of the people who spend such a large amount of their time trying to sort it, from the goodness of there own heart.

How many times do you need to be told that you are not aloud to poke fun, make suggestions or even express an opinion on the NTET!!!

What kills rallies ?

Pissed off exhibitors , pissed off helpers , and pissed off public .

If the exhibitors are happy it goes a long way to make the public happy . The same goes for the hi-vizzers , they need to be smiling as well .

;);):eek::cool:

Unfortunately over the years 'comittee' and a 'business culture' has taken over from local 'like minded' people and common sense! Once upon a time rallies were grateful to exhibitors for bringing their machines along and thereby supporting the show. However all too often nowadays us exhibitors are made to feel like the rally are doing us a favour by allowing us to exhibit! If this culture carries on it will be the death knell for rallies up and down the land as a lot of people like me will not bother as we can have just as much fun on a road run or a steam up in the yard / garden.

Cost is also ans issue I take my 6" engine along to a few rallies each year (and as a result of the above the numbers are dwindling year on year). each time i take my engine on a trailer and then make a return journey for the caravan etc I burn £50+ in fuel not to mention food and all the other essentials. All in all I probably do near on £100 and thats just to be there. No one normally (except full size engine owners ) get paid to attend so the cost is down to us and what with the recession and everyone having to tighten belts etc, spending that kind of money for a weekend being made to feel like we should be endebted to a comittee and priviledged to be so, just doesn't cut it!

Rules and regulations have also ruined the spirit of rallies for a lot of people. I for one have often said that if I want a weekend being bossed about by the hi-viz clad clowns and having to obey stringent rules all the time I might as well do a couple of weekend shifts at work (Train driver) and get paid for it rather than forking out for it.

All in all the world has changed ruinously from the way it was when rallies and steam preservation in particular first started and alas it is hard to imagine how the spirit of the rallies of old could ever be re-captured, but rally comittees up and down the country would do well to remember that the rally weekend is as much about the exhibitor as it is about the paying public, if not more so, as without us they would be charging the public to enter an empty field with just some trade stands, junk stalls and burger vans, the likes of which most people could find on any local piece of waste ground near them on a choice of sunday mornings with an entry fee that is considerably more affordable!

[QUOTE=ballastdriver;310396]Unfortunately over the years 'comittee' and a 'business culture' has taken over from local 'like minded' people and common sense! Once upon a time rallies were grateful to exhibitors for bringing their machines along and thereby supporting the show. However all too often nowadays us exhibitors are made to feel like the rally are doing us a favour by allowing us to exhibit! If this culture carries on it will be the death knell for rallies up and down the land as a lot of people like me will not bother as we can have just as much fun on a road run or a steam up in the yard / garden.

Cost is also ans issue I take my 6" engine along to a few rallies each year (and as a result of the above the numbers are dwindling year on year). each time i take my engine on a trailer and then make a return journey for the caravan etc I burn £50+ in fuel not to mention food and all the other essentials. All in all I probably do near on £100 and thats just to be there. No one normally (except full size engine owners ) get paid to attend so the cost is down to us and what with the recession and everyone having to tighten belts etc, spending that kind of money for a weekend being made to feel like we should be endebted to a comittee and priviledged to be so, just doesn't cut it!

Rules and regulations have also ruined the spirit of rallies for a lot of people. I for one have often said that if I want a weekend being bossed about by the hi-viz clad clowns and having to obey stringent rules all the time I might as well do a couple of weekend shifts at work (Train driver) and get paid for it rather than forking out for it.

All in all the world has changed ruinously from the way it was when rallies and steam preservation in particular first started and alas it is hard to imagine how the spirit of the rallies of old could ever be re-captured, but rally comittees up and down the country would do well to remember that the rally weekend is as much about the exhibitor as it is about the paying public, if not more so, as without us they would be charging the public to enter an empty field with just some trade stands, junk stalls and burger vans, the likes of which most people could find on any local piece of waste ground near them on a choice of sunday mornings with an entry fee that is considerably more affordable![/QUO

of the few rallies we attend only one we get some money back and it doesn't even come near covering the diesel. money can't be a factor, if it is get a cheaper hobby!

Charity starts at home

I have personally found this to be the case only on rare occassions. However, I have found this to be more common in railway rather than road steam preservation.

You have raised some interesting points here. I have been on both sides of the fence in as much as I am a regular attender of rallies in Devon and Cornwall where I live. I was on the organising committee of a local rally for two years until other commitments forced me to step down.

From the visitor point of view, I like to see a variety of exhibits. From the organisers point of view why cant we have exhibitors who may have half a dozen rusty bikes, oil cans, tractor seats etc as long as the exhibitor makes his display interesting through variety, rarity etc of his exhibits? Exhibitors of rusty bikes etc may only have the opportunity to show off their collection at local rallies and they can generate a lot of goodwill in as much as they will tell their neighbours and friends that they will be exhibiting at such and such rally. The exhibitor generates goodwill in as much as they are giving free publicity to the rally concerned. What I do object to, are the owners of say a classic coach who wish to exhibit their vehicle and who get a free rally pass, fill their vehicle with their friends who then get into the rally free of charge. Perhaps rally organisers should insist that an exhibitor only gets free admission for his exhibit plus two people and any extra people have to pay the normal admission price.

Another problem for exhibitors is the attitude of some rally organisers. I know the owner of a 1907 Stanley Steam Car and he was telling me that owners of steam engines receive a free allocation of coal at most rallies yet, because his steam car is powered by petrol he receives nothing. What makes matters even worse, is that he raises money for local charities at most events and he does not receive any financial contribution for attending rallies.

Finally, I agree that greed has taken over in as much as money to some organisers is more important than providing a good day out for the public at a price which they can afford.

In my defence, I recently took my pile of shit, which features oil cans and a bike to a show and it crested a lot more interest than either the fowler or Garrett I had parked either side.

Took an hour to get it home and close to 16 hours to get both engines back in the shed.

...after thinking about this for a bit I am not sure anything particulary "kills" a rally, but I get bored when I see the same engines/exhibits, in the same locations, year-in-year-out. And when I am bored, I don't go back again.

Some blokes/rally committees have worked hard to get this right, such as prior events at Cerney, but for the ones I attend in Kent its mainly the same old stuff. Having trudged through the mud in Dorset this year, I got the same feeling so may give it a miss for a year or two (sure, I know Gigantic was there, and the trenches and everything... but it all felt very familiar).

So Tom, familiarity breeds contempt....

Engines being a pretty finite resource and difficult to transport it must be difficult for organisers wherever they are to attract / bring in new engines from other parts of the country though? As an example what would be the attraction or incentive for engines from oop North or the South West to visit rallies in Kent? I don't disagree with what you are suggesting but new exhibits is a tough thing to address I would think, so all you can do is shuffle things around a bit. Our little gathering in Canterbury gets plenty of support from the public and its surprising how many are repeat visitors year on year. Free admission and free parking help I guess lol.

Paul.

You're right Paul... and Sturry was the best one I went to last year for the reasons you mention. Have I missed it, or is it later in the year... I have a crap memory.:o

Any number of reasons.

Bad weather year after year
Exhibitors being treated like sh*t!
Loss of use of the ground & a suitable replacement not being found
Places simply not wanting to host it any longer (Such as Woodlands)
Places shutting down (Such as the Shire Horse Centre)
Greed!
Red tape

Tom Rolt Vintage Rally in the incarnation we ran it as was finished due to too many bad years of weather and no finances to sustain it.

Sorry Dave you have missed it this year! The Sunday was a total wash out unfortunately, some of our gallant railmen ran late morning but everyone was soaked by midday! We were still turning people away at the gate at three in the afternoon!! For next year its always the weekend 9th and 10th August or the weekend closest too!

Paul.

I used to do 18 rallies per season and am now down to 12. the others having gone to that great Rally Field in the sky., and for most of the reasons listed above. Lack of footfall, Elf & Safety., Large Insurance premiums, poor weather, unsuitable fields, deaths of organisers/landowners. Too far to travel due to fuel costs Too much regimentation, do this ,do that, don't do that. Too expensive entry charges, some rallies now , a family of four needs at least £100 for the day. There's lots more reasons I suspect, but I don't suppose we will ever totally sort it out even though they rally scene is slowly diminishing.. I suspect it will all be finally down to individual clubs having a yearly do as my club and several more have., and the big rallies as we know em have all but gone.

On the plus side, some newer, smaller gatherings are flourishing. The informal pub gatherings are good. My nearest one, up in the Warrington/ North Cheshire area is a pleasant weekend. The main beneficiary seems to be the pub landlord who is prepared to give over his car park for the weekend, good for him!
That reminds me, are we about due another this autumn Clive?

Don't you patronise me you gobby little shite!

Your another cause for all this! Gallivanting all over the country with your whippet and dinosaur, trudging all your father's worldly possessions around up hill and down dale! Holding up Joe Bloggs and poor old chardonnay in their Chelsea tractor.. due to the free exhibition time you give them on the road, they feel no need to attend the show. Plus because they had to actually drive under the speed limit for once, they don't wish to attend the show because you held them up!

There is a similar problem down here in as much as you can see the same engines year after year at different rallies during the season. However, we are at the end of the UK and the likes of Cornwall only shares it's border with Devon!!

However, rally organisers down here do a fantastic job by spending large amounts of money encouraging engines from outside the area to attend local rallies. We have had over the past 5 seasons an amazing number of engines which are not native to Devon and Cornwall. We should take our hats off to both the organisers who invest heavily in attracting new engines and to the owners for being prepared to travel to this end of the country to exhibit their engines.

I may be wrong, but I feel that the killer down here is the cost of transporting engines. It is great to be able to road your engine but some of the roads down here are just not suitable for doing so. Look at the A382 which passes through Bovey Tracey and Moretonhampstead, in several places it is single track with passing places and it is treacherous in October most years when timber is felled in the area and it is transported on large articulated lorries from the Moretonhampstead direction down though Bovey Tracey and then presumably onto the A38 Devon Expressway. The only advantage of these large lorries is that if you follow one you have a relatively speedy journey as oncoming traffic tends to keep out of their way!

I think that the only way to turn around attendances at rallies is not to try and make as much money as possible. Instead, charge reasonable admission fees and provide attractions which are of interest to all of the family. For example, out of the four of us in my household, my 17 year old grandson and myself are interested in the Traction Engines both full size and miniatures at rallies. My 15 year old grandaughter enjoys the vintage fairgrounds. My wife is not interested in any of the above and does not attend any rallies at all. She has been to two in the twenty two years that we have been together. If rally organisers provided an attraction that was of interest to her, she would attend and that would be one more admission fee for the organiser!

Sadly, that can happen. However, if rally organisers kept a note of local weather conditions they MAY be able to time their rallies when there is a better chance of it being dry. Look at the number of muddy GDSF's there have been over recent years.

Down here, Torbay is one of the best value for money rallies and that is probably why at 1130 on the last day (a Sunday) there was a long queue of visitors waiting to pay and get through the paygate. In my own case the costs were as follows, £8.00 in total for diesel to get there and back from home. £7.00 admission for myself as I am now 60 years old. £3.00 admission for my 17 year old grandson and £3.00 admission for my 15 year old granddaughter as 17 year olds and under get admitted at child rates. £2.00 for an excellent programme making a total of £23.00 for an absolutely great day out. Plus, we bought food etc and probably spent about a further £20 - £25 between us. Who can argue with that and there were around 7 engines which had not appeared at Torbay before out of 26 full sized engines which were on show.

That is why Torbay is the only Rally which I attend EVERY year.

I think this is a very interesting debate. The natural progression of things is of course that, without the money gained from the public returning year on year, then there won't be the funds to do the job again. This is unfortunately, from people I know who've had experiences, the odd thing about certain rallies these days. The money is wanted more than the enjoyment factor. I find it odd when I read these things about rallies expecting owners to be pleased to be invited, almost in the regard of 'allowing an engine to exhibit'. It has always been my feeling, wether my event is a miniature engine event or not, that every exhibit should be appreciated no matter what it is, as everything has its place. Every single exhibit that attends our small gathering, wether 1.5", 6", full size whatever is appreciated and gratefully received in the same way - as it should be. No event can operate without the full co-operation of the exhibitors and, as many have rightly pointed out above, the exhibitors are doing it as part of their hobby, in their spare time, using their money, fuel etc to attend and therefore we should be making them feel as appreciated and as welcome as possible. This is one thing I have always tried to do with every potential exhibitor of the MTEW event at Market Bosworth. I've exhibited at some places in the past myself and you never forget a bad experience and this will undoubtedly be the end of rallies in the future if the enjoyment factor of the hobby continues to be quashed by amassing greater funds and tightening up on H & S to the point of the insane. Don't get me wrong, the events need to make money otherwise you can't sustain the event or indeed improve by getting more bits in or advertising each year, but you should do your best if you can to not bite off the hand that feeds you and upset those that make the event possible...the exhibitors.

You can have bad weather and you can have issues with the venue, both of which even the best of organisers can struggle to protect against.

I am in agreement with the theory that if everyone from the organiser to the section leaders and exhibitors does their bit and there's a happy atmosphere then it will likely be a good event. Some organisers are business people and some are committees, well I've seen good and bad in both! A good business person can run a good rally, just as they can run good businesses with happy employees too.

Obviously I speak for a small percentage here but having been one of the public attending shows and now having purchased my engine I've been looking at exhibiting once it's done I have these things to say...

From a public point of view I have found that very few owners, both full size or miniature, seem willing to chat about their engines, most people I tried to talk to about their engine and the show and the scene in general just seemd annoyed at the fact I was bothering them and gave very blunt answers and tried to shut the conversation down ASAP and get on with sitting in their chair staring into space. Don't get me wrong, there were a select few that welcomed a nice conversation and loved telling me all about their pride and joy and the rallies ect. But the general feeling I got was that if you weren't an owner then you weren't worth talking to, if this is how all of the young people are treated then I can see why my friends all laugh at my love for steam and say 'it's for grumpy old men' I don't agree with my friends atall but I'm now seeing where they are coming from. That said, everyone on this forum seems to be very nice and I can't wait to meet a lot of you at the rallies I attend!

Now for the engine owner side of things...

Having been looking into next years shows and rallies and deciding which ones to attend I have noticed a pattern. A lot of rallies seem to put a cap on minimum size of engine that are allowed to move on site, a lot I have looked at say no smaller than 3" scale. Which in my eyes is stupid, the amount of 2" engines I see in old rally videos on the internet that I can't seat show snow is unbelievable, if anything I feel the organisers should be encouraging the miniature engine owners to attend instead of pushing them away and saying they can't use them for their intended purpose. That said there may be something that I'm unaware of that is making them do this? If anything the smaller engines are what the public can relate to more and it's more likely what they will be getting if they are considering an engine.

Anyways, that's my 2pence worth, being new to the forum I hope no one takes what I've said the wrong way!

Hi, you have made some interesting comments. I was not personally aware that some rally organisers had a minimum engine size policy. In my opinion this is ludicrous, a live steam engine is a live steam engine irrespective of it's size. I must admit, I admire the smaller scales due to the engineering excellence which they embody and the fact that someone with a hell of a lot more skill than I will ever possess has built and operated a masterpiece of engineering. You may not be able to ride behind it especially if you are built as I am like a brick built outhouse! but it is still a pleasure to see these marvels of engineering in steam.

Yes I was quite surprised too when I read the rules. Welland and woodcote are two that I can remember off the top of my head. Both of which were shows I'd have liked to attend but with my engine being a 2" showmans I'd want to be driving it rather than sitting in the model tent staring at it!

Matt, sorry to hear you have experienced several owners who have been rather curt, grumpy, and in a hurry to get rid of you. I, and most of my mates in the steam business are not like that, Yes there are a few grumpy sods about [I am72yrs by the way ] and I can certainly name a small few who are like that, but I and the majority are pleasant and friendly and only too willing to have a discussion about their engines and all things steam related.. Re the size ban, they do not operate that up here, there are a couple of rallies that do not encourage 4'' Fosters any more as they are like Cortinas were, everybody had got one. But apart from that all the rallies I attend are very friendly , this being mainly the East Midlands area.

I've been visiting a few shows this year as paying public as well as exhibiting at a few. The one thing that has struck me is how few exhibits (in all categories) have any information with them. Any that do have an information board or at least an A4 sheet receive a lot of attention from the public. Most people attending want to learn and like to look at photos and information. It would be nice to see more exhibits having a bit of information with them to not only encourage the public to learn about them but also to stop owners having to answer the same questions time and time again!

I'm sure the list of common questions is pretty much the same for all steam engine owners!:)

Ed

I agree with this, but some owners do it really well with lots of information.

Maybe we could come up with a template that people could use, fill in the details about your exhibit, include some photographs, some standard text common to all steam exhibits and a printable display board is output at the end. We could do that on TT actually.