Wagon Steering box
 

I'm looking for a steering box that is suitable for a 7 ton (Fowler) wagon with solid tyres.
Here is a picture of what we have already.
http://www.tractiontalkforum.com/pic...ictureid=29016

It is not the original steering box, and there are suspicions that this one is not up to the job. And its broken. So make of that what you will.

We managed to find a chap with a spare for his Sentinel, which seemed like an ideal replacement, but alas, he would not part with it. Which I can understand.

Even if someone has something which we could loan, until we find something, we would be eternally grateful.

Or better still, if someone had the genuine Fowler article, I would happily come and lick hot clinker from your fire-grate.
That sounds a bit rude! I didn't mean it to, But you get the picture.

I have patterns for a Super Sentinel steering box.

Hi Andrew, I think if we end up manufacturing a box from scratch, then we will try to copy the original, for which I think we have drawings.
But Thankyou for getting in touch.

Now I'm holding a candle to the Devil a bit here, but the photograph of the waggon when in the scrap yard shows a steering box, so where did that go? As the Fowler had a very traction engine like steering wheel I'm wondering if the steering was to low geared for anything other than gulley emptying, so if I were you I'd have a good look at the drawings and see if things can be improved before making anything, maybe the thread is single start, and a double start could be made instead.

I'm not sure, (a grown up will be along soon to correct me) but is it safe to presume that when the wagon was designed, it was designed for multiple uses, and a gully emptier was just one option?
I would be surprised if steering boxes were changed due to different body options.
The one in the scrapyard picture, which I would love to know where it went, looks like the one in the Fowler drawings, which mentions nothing about gully emptying.
However, I have been wrong before.....................

I'll send a PM

I was under the impression that the wagon was cut up into at least two sections after the picture Michael posted. The steering box would be very prone to damage in its position.

I suspect the your right, possibly why it was replaced.
Shame we can't just pop into halfords for a new one!

Now you mention it, I've heard stories from other folk about the chassis being cut in half.

I have also been told that that's not true, so who knows.

What I do know, is that a number of people approached the scrapyard owners(s) about buying it, but were turned away as it was already promised to Tom. So if that was the case, why would they then cut it up? It doesn't add up.

When I first saw the remains of the wagon in about 1970 it had been cut into many more parts than just two. As I recall the following parts were missing: chassis, steering box, controls apart from the regulator, springs, brake rods, prop shaft and the front axle beam had been cut out. Another fact that you might not be aware of is that the differential worm and wheel were replaced with a differential from a Yorkshire WJ 6 wheeler. This had the effect of gearing the wagon up; if my memory is correct the original axle ratio was 6.25:1 and the replacement is 4.5:1. The reason it was replaced was that the original bronze wheel broke up when it was taken out of the rear axle for inspection. The rear axles on the Yorkshire and the Fowler were both products of Kirkstall Forge.

With regard to the steering box I would say that trying to replace on a like for like basis of what is there now would be futile since it is not heavy enough for the job. I don't know what to suggest other than something from a similar size of steam wagon.

It has just occurred to me that the wagon that was cut in two would be the Sentinel DG6P that Tom had. That was purchased from Hardwicks along with the back end of a Super on the occasion that we went there to try to find the remains of a Fowler wagon that they had cut up many years before.

Ah, so perhaps the steering box was not broken, but poached for something else?

Terry mentioned about the axle internals being replaced, but I'm not sure he knew why or what with. Somebody told me that Tom had tried to make it faster, which fits in with a ratio change I suppose, however, it may be more likely that the yorkshire item was all he could lay his hands on at the time!

I never met Tom, but he sounds like quite a character.

So in the scrapyard picture in the other thread, is the chassis already cut? seems reasonably long, but hard to tell.

As mentioned, the axle internals were not changed by choice, but of necessity. I don't know for certain whether the chassis had been cut by the time of the photo but think it unlikely otherwise John Butler would have mentioned it. When Tom got the remains the chassis had gone along with a lot of the other bits.

I understand the parts had to be replaced, I was just speculating on whether the ratio change was deliberate, or they just fitted what they had.

The story I got from Terry was that his Dad had seen this wagon in the scrapyard and tried to buy it there and then, but because it was at the bottom of a very large pile of scrap, the scrapman was unwilling to move it all just to release the wagon, so said that he would have to wait until the pile was being moved anyway.

So Tom went back again and again, year after year, until he came away with it, or what was left of it.

There still appears to be bits of the jigsaw missing though.

The picture shows some stuff on top of it, but not that much, and although I cant be too exact, I understood that this all went on in the seventies. So if the picture is dated 1965, then why did the scrapman not sell it to the photographer? presuming he saw it before Tom did.

If Tom HAD already seen it, then why carry on burying it? Or chop it up?

There must be some details still to come out of the woodwork, but I've learnt loads in the last week.

Thanks to all that have shared what they know, and for the photos.

For future reference, here's the link to the other thread: http://www.tractiontalkforum.com/showthread.php?t=36924

My impression of the scrapyard photo (repeated below for convenience) is that the wagon was effectively sticking out of the side of a large pile of scrap, and so while it was accessible to take a photo, it might have had many tons of scrap that would need removing to retrieve it. As Dad mentioned, John Butler tried to buy it at the time, but was unable to, and by the time Tom purchased the remains, the wagon had been much more heavily cut up.

One possibility to consider for a replacement steering box might be seeing if one could be fabricated from plate, instead of making new castings. From the photo, it's flat sided, and the curved part of it only curves in one direction. I know Julian Hopper in Kent has made some very complex fabrications in the past for other steam wagon projects. Obviously the worm and wheel (or worm and segment) are still a problem, but it might solve part of the issue.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/michael...owlerwagon.jpg

'Tis a small world. The broken box that we have is with Julian Hopper as we speak!

As for making one from plate, another TT member has shared drawings from his 7" scale model with us, made from plate, so that may be an option too.

Things are starting to look a little brighter, the wagon has been off the road over 6 months now *cry

Great! I would certainly suggest talking to him about making a new one... and to close the circle, Julian had his Sentinel S-type from John Butler, whose photo we have here!

Here are some details of the Fowler steering.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/michael...ersteering.JPG

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/michael...rsteering1.JPG

Interesting that the front crossmember and axle are both kinked to clear the boiler!

It certainly looks like the steering column and box would be quite feasible to reproduce, and wouldn't be tremendously expensive, as it uses a nut and thread (presumably Acme form), rather than worm and wheel.

Am I reading the drawing correctly?
It appears to me that the bottom of the column is unsupported, and that it hinges very slightly about the top mount?

Yes, the bottom of the steering shaft has to float. If there was a bearing at the bottom end of the shaft the nut would require a slotted connection on the steering arm bell crank to allow the trunnion on the bell crank to move in an arc and the nut on the shaft to move in a straight line. An interesting concept that I was discussing with QL driver yesterday. This is very similar to the way that the steering on Yorkshire wagons was arranged before the introduction of the WG model.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/michael.../yorksteer.JPG

This is not surprising since W.J.Lewin had left Yorkshire's to work for Fowlers.

I wondered why the casting for the steering box extended so far up the column.
It all makes sense now.
I assumed (wrongly) from the photo that the boss cast into the bottom of the case was to support the end of the column, but can now see that it is actually a hole, with a blank in it to allow the whole damn thing to be assembled.

The plot thickens!

I have spoken to John Butler and he has confirmed that he saw the wagon and took the photo in November 1966 at Robinson and Birdsell's lower yard in Moor Road, Hunslet. The yard is still there, but sadly all the steam wagon remains have gone. Quite a few wagons and parts were rescued from this yard. John had initially gone there in a search for Yorkshire parts and purchased a new unused Yorkshire boiler for his wagon. Unfortunately this turned out to be a 3 ton boiler, which is now fitted to the 2 ton Yorkshire.

The Fowler must have been substantially complete when John saw it since he made arrangements to purchase, unfortunately the deal was never successfully concluded. At the time John had a number of steam wagon projects and reckoned that he was unlikely to have considered it at the time if it had been cut up and a lot of important parts had been missing.

My dad worked in Leeds and was a regular visitor to Robinson & Birdsells around that time.
He went in one day to drop some scrap brass off, and whilst in the office one of the staff came in to report that he had just uncovered a steam boiler.
Dad went out to have a look and bought it there and then and it came back home on the wagon the same day. It turned out to be a Yorkshire wagon boiler still in really good condition.
I know it sat in our engine shed for many years having been cleaned up and a coat of aluminium paint applied to keep the rust off it.

I remember dad telling me that Tom Varley was not best pleased when he heard we had bought the boiler. I think Tom thought he had exclusive rights to any steam stuff that was uncovered in that scrap yard.

What I don't know is where the boiler eventually went, I presume it was sold at one of our two auction sales, does anyone know if it is currently being used in a restored wagon, I hope it is ?

Phil

I have a similar affliction to your Dad, Phil.
I often leave the scrapyard having bought things I don't actually need, but they were too good to leave in a scrapyard!
I suspect there may be a few TT members with similar illnesses.

It would be nice to find out where it ended up.

Dave
just buy a Sentinel you know it makes sense
JD

You cheeky witch!
I could then embark on a 25 year restoration.
Sound familiar?

My granddad used to say, rather wistfully, "My yard is full of bargains"