It is noticeable that the torque is pretty even , with little belt flapping , until the button is used , and then the engine is effectively a big single . McLarens would seem to have got their bore sizes well proportioned to produce such even torque .

The answer is that it wouldn't. Nowhere near as quick.

The governors could not put the engine in mid gear as young Mr Searle did, nor would it have permanently shut the regulator. Both of which as seen stopped the engine PDQ.

A governor would simply have effectively closed the regulator until the speed dropped to a pre determined level. Then opened it again.

Some big mill engines had a special fitting.
 

Most governors on large mill engines were belt driven.After a few misadventures in early years when belts came off and engines ran away to destruction a special fitting was added to many. The name Musgrave comes to mind here. It was apparently a giant clockwork motor geared to rapidly close a stop valve on the main supply to the engine, It was triggered by breakage of the belt driving the governors and/ or by various other emergency stop handles strategically placed. I believe that later devices were electrically driven. Hope this is of interest David Powell.

The interesting thing about some governors is they don't fail safe.

Thanks very much to steamshovel for passing on his detailed knowledge of belt drives, which seems to confirm my own observations of the video in my earlier post - belt resonance, then belt slippage, followed by belt loss.

I also reflected that a big engine might be expected to generate 300 amps at 110 volts (typical fairground loads). That's about 55 hp, call it 65 BHP to cover belt and dynamo losses. My earlier post estimated power from what others have said to be about double that. Don't expect to overload anything by a factor of 2 without some risk to life and limb.

As to governors.
1 They should be used as a first line of defence against the engine racing away.
2 Once the load starts to slow the engine from it's governed speed, the test should be stopped - a simple way to estimate excessive overloading.
3 Governors do not eliminate the need for someone on the footplate to shut down manually in case of problems.

As to general safety:
1 Barriers in this instance were not adequate to the rear of the demo. and would provide no protection from flying debris.
2 The coal team were definitely in danger, but perhaps were not made aware of the danger.
3 A maximum loading must be estimated before testing starts based on the lower of engine NHP x some agreed factor OR belt width x some agreed power per inch width.
4 There seems to be a case for a "referee / safety marshall" to oversee such tests and tell others when to stop.

I'm really not against dyno testing done in a controlled and safe manner. Nor am I a safety saint - I have had too many of my own self induced stupid moments but have been lucky.

I had a p.m. this morning from another member which reads "I was there to witness it and the whole spectacle left a number of us feeling like we had witnessed a car accident or similar, it was an unpleasant experience............"

Is that how we want rallies to be?

Martin

insurance
 

does the NTEC club third party insurance cover you for this sort of thing ?

Many Pickering governors had a spring loaded trip device to close the governor in the event of a mishap . This was often attached to a cord which ran to wherever it could be reached by those using the machinery . Known in the States , I believe , as ' The Sawyers Lever ' . The ratchet parts are often to be seen on governors .
A refinement of this was a weighted pulley on a swinging arm . The pulley ran on the back of the governor pulley , and if that belt broke or malfunctioned , then the pulley dropped and a lever from its arm tripped the ratchet and closed the governor . Very effective , and a good reason to use a Pickering .

No, under the present laws any claim would be against the engines RTA insurance.

In second video the Sledge did move quite a bit, aside from that there seems to have been quite a bit of shake as the legs supporting the Dynamometer didn't seem to be braced.. As no one was injured maybe a case of learn from the incident.

I wouldn't like to rely on that. I agree that since Vnuk the fact that the test didn't take place on a road is irrelevant but if, and I stress if, a case like this came to court any engine owner would have to convince a judge that the test was 'use of a vehicle which was consistent with the normal function of that vehicle'. This of course in the light also of any restriction on cover contained in the Certificate of Motor Insurance.

insurance
 

if this is the case, is this practise illegal ?on any insurance policy it states that you are nor covered for racing pace making etc .

A working day policy might have covered it.
 

If an engine owner of , say. 1920, had an insurance policy it likely would have covered the engine and ( perhaps) third party risks when in " Normal" use. Normal use would, of course cover using the engine out of gear driving machinery of any sort.
Insurers are in business to make money, if they can see a way to avoid making payments they will.
An engine owner would do well to check his/ her policy with the aid of a lawyer. small print exclusions can be confusing to a layman.
I rather doubt that RTA coverage alone would cover mishaps driving machinery as a stationary engine.
I regard insurance companies as " Licensed Thieves" and all I have is that demanded by law to drive my SUV
Regards David Powell.

I suspect that in a case like this once a claim is made the various insurers would then fight it out amongst themselves to see who if any of them was liable. Those who think they can rely on RTA cover should look at the case of Mr Holden where the use of a vehicle is discussed. I have been told in the past that things like a tractor while stationary driving a sawbench on the belt have frequently made it necessary to decide whether it is RTA or PLI and as in the case of Mr Holden it is often down to the courts to decide. Incidentally you may be interested to note that due to the fact we have not had a government since 2016 the changes required to UK law in the light of Vnuk have never been made. In a recent judgement Lord Justice Flaux stated: “The fact that the UK government has failed to legislate for compulsory insurance in respect of the use of motor vehicles on private land and then specifically to delegate to the MIB the residual liability where the relevant vehicle is uninsured, can legitimately be described as a breakdown in the system put in place by the government.” Whether the present incumbents will be any different who knows....

I'm guessing that post Brexit things will return to how they were 20 years ago, so certain members of our 'Representative body' will not have to worry. Everything that We get up to will be a bit more risky than it is now.

As noted above by Bob, this is a Pickering mill engine governor. the additional pulley rides on the belt, kept up by belt tension. It is fail safe in that if the belt breaks, the governor closes and cuts off the steam. In addition you will see it is fitted with a sawyers valve. This usually had a rope from each end to the saw (or machine) which allowed the operator to increase or decrease the governed speed at will, or effectively stop the engine.

http://www.steamscenes.org.uk/tti/14/041_0450.jpg

Also to be seen on traction engines . Burrell 1426 had the full kit , fitted later in life when the original governore were no doubt worn out . Recent owners of this engine threw it all out and fitted repro' original governors .

the governors on my Marshall has all the gear except the lever for the additional pulley.

None of it is original however. Not fitted with governors new.

Thanks for the interesting picture of a later Pickering governor with equipment to stop runaway in the event of loss of governor belt. I have learnt something today!

Martin

Not really quite sure what Roger is trying to get at with this post, other than that He's scared to mention My name, but each to his own. Anyway the link to Mr. Holden actually proves My point precisely. Essentially following Mr Holdens incident HIS RTA insurance HAD to pay out, and this link is the court appeal by Mr Holdens car insurers to re-claim half of the payout (for destroying the adjacent premises) from the insurance of Mr Holdens Employer, on the reasoning that the adjoining building was destroyed by the fire in Mr Holdens Employers building rather than the fire in Mr Holdens car. It is interesting that both buildings were valued at £1,000,000 which at the time was the maximum liability for damage to property (now £1.2 million) under the RTA.

Either through His own incompetence or an attempt to cause mischief, ( hopefully the former) Roger has either overlooked or ignored THE MOST IMPORTANT STATEMENT in the whole article, which is naturally the statement that proves My point.

It seems very strange to Me that Roger has apparently been organising events for around 10 years less than I have yet has not kept up with changes (generally for the better) that have been brought in during this time. Whether these improvements will survive Brexit is yet to be seen

A brief resume of the case can be found here I would draw attention to paragraph 2 of the comments.

The claim and counterclaim that are the concern of the case are irrelevant to the point I was making which hinges on the use of the vehicle under RTA cover. In UK law this has always been taken to indemnify the insured against claims in the case of accidents arising from the normal use of the vehicle on a road or public place. Normal use includes, and this is backed by case law, leaving a broken down car on the road until it can be recovered and such things. Incidents that would arise out of the normal use of the vehicle. This is the minimum cover required under the act applied with common sense as to what most would accept as use of the vehicle. I don't doubt that other policies confer more cover but as it happens my current cover excludes claims arising from the use of any cutting and welding equipment in the course of repairs.

Now in para 53 of the judgement Lord Hodge says

53. In my view, neither English domestic case law nor the jurisprudence of the
CJEU supports the view that the carrying out of significant repairs to a vehicle on
private property entails the “use” of the vehicle. The English case law which
interprets “use” in the RTA as “having the use of” makes good sense in the context
of vehicles which have been left on a road or in a public place, where members of
the public are likely to encounter them, but less sense if applied without qualification
to vehicles located on private property. In ordinary language one would not speak
of a person who is conducting substantial repairs to a stationary vehicle as “using”
that vehicle,

Now it seems to me that this indicates quite clearly that in assessing liability the courts could well be asked to give a decision on whether any activity with a vehicle could be construed as the 'use' of that vehicle under the act as it has been interpreted up until now.
Lord Hodge also refers in para 38 to a 2017 case where a tractor fitted with a herbicide pumping kit ran way and crushed a worker while it was being used as a stationary pump.

He notes that the European Court said:

the concept of “use of vehicles” covers “any use of a vehicle as a means of transport”
(para 38). The fact that a vehicle was stationary or that its engine was not running at
the time of the accident did not preclude the use falling within the scope of its
function as a means of transport (para 39). But the concept of “use of vehicles” did
not cover a circumstance in which the tractor’s principal function, at the time of the
accident, was not to serve as a means of transport but to generate, as a machine for
carrying out work, the motive power necessary to drive the pump of a herbicide
sprayer (para 42 and the dispositif).


These are simply matters to which i think it wise to draw attention.

You are STILL missing the main point of RTA insurance, and You are drifting off into the LA LA Land of Public Liability, which has NOTHING to do with playing with engines, The important part of the link that You have posted is in paragraph 3 BUT for You to recognise this would merely expose the irrelevence (In this matter) of the NTET and it's 'Dream up a problem that dosen't exist and then fail to solve it' mentality. 'Use' is of no relevence to RTA insurance and in trying to give it some relevence You are effectively betraying the entire Road steam fraternity.

Why did the driver feel the need to shove the button in? is it the equivalent of your boy racer with a noisy exhaust trying to make up for some lack of size in the trouser department?
If you want to demonstrate the engines power then do so in a sensible manner like a professional driver.

It is only a matter of time before someone is seriously hurt

Recently living vans ending up on their side!

Saw benches being overreved and throwing teeth

And belts being pushed twice their limit.

Dogs falling off engines and being run over by the living van. Heck even children

A C@@T on a steam engine being beheaded should really draw the crowds in.
Doesn’t matter how quick you shut the regulator when you have a belt wrapped round your neck you are going to struggle to do so.

I am all for pushing stuff to their limits but having witnessed a trailer running away at Dorset thank god it was stopped. The hole game needs some more common sense involved.

Or it won’t be long and we will all be confined to a museum saying “I remember seeing these at steam rallies!!’

Any activity has risks,
 

You could be sitting in an armchair in your basement and a large aeroplane could crash into your house and kill you !! But that is very unlikely.

Over revving a 100 year old engine while standing next to the 100 yr old flywheel is rather riskier

What matters to most of us is that the risk takers take their risks in circumstances and places where others will NOT be hurt and neither will the hobby itself suddenly find restrictions imposed by government.

In Canada and the States the spectator sport of watching monster truck racing came under tighter scrutiny and regulation after one ran amok , out of the arena, and killed a few spectators.

Play safe, have fun, and if you want to push the envelope do it so you will not harm anyone else.

Regards David Powell

Well then we shall simply have to agree to differ.

Is it worth pointing out that both of the last 2 officials of the NTET who agreed to differ with Me are now no longer even members of the NTET?

Heaven forbid the belt caught on the safety valves and ripped them off........

Not a worry there !
 

If that happened then the engine would soon stop ! Everyone around would get a shower in VERY hot water. ! The fusible plug would likely melt and whatever water was left in the boiler might put the fire out, or it might have a burned crown. Even in 2" size a fitting breaking off is a bit scary, but not a disaster. Regards David Powell.

Stephen,

Do you have other info on this case or have I misread? It states on page 3 of the judgement that AXA, Pheonix engineering's insurers paid out over £2m to Pheonix and the neighbour to settle the claim. AXA then took action against UKI (Holden's RTA insurer) in Pheonix name to recover their loss as they felt Holden to be responsible and his RTA policy should cover the liability. In the first case the judge found UKI not liable, in the appeal that decision was reversed and UKI was felt to be liable and then in the third case in the Supreme Court even taking into account again the EU situation the appeal was overruled and the first judgement upheld that UKI was not liable and the activity undertaken was not "normal use of the vehicle" and thus not covered under the policy. It takes a bit of reading to understand it but I can't see that UKI the RTA insurer ever paid out anything? Do I have that wrong?

I assume if I haven't that AXA / Pheonix could persue Mr Holden personally for the damages if they could prove negligence, probably not in their interest as even if they won he is probably unlikely to have the resources for them to recover their loss and as he was an employee albeit probably not on pay at the time Pheonix themselves may have culpability by virtue of allowing the work to proceed and as AXA is Pheonix insurer it would be an even more convoluted circle! Phoenix also agreed to limit their pursuit of the claim to UKI.

Notwithstanding my second para I can't see how this illustrates the gold plated RTA insurance covers all eventualities? As far as I can see UKI the RTA insurer never paid a penny in settlement of the claim although they would have incurred substantial legal costs. The judgement also establishes case law for future similar situations.

Obviously this case is unrelated to the dyno testing as there is no employee / employer relationship and it was in a public space not private property where the public were excluded. Let's just be thankful that there was no need on this occasion to put the legalities to the test!

Paul.

there is a lot of talk about governors, I am not fully up on the speck of Boadicea but would I be right in thinking that road locomotives would not usually be fitted with them?

As far as testing an engine's performance as I see it in its working life an engine would have been pushed to work hard, however as the engine not only had a high value to its owner but it would be expected to earn its keep day in and day out so working the engine as hard as we see some engines worked today would have been frowned upon and probably to the extent of sacking the driver. I love to see an engine working hard but it should always be kept within the bounds of reality.

You make a very valid point, Stuart. Which would suggest that engines not equipped with a working governor should not be used on a dynamometer any more than they should be used for threshing or sawing.

Martin

Governors would be supplied on any engine to order . I am not sure if they were standard road loco spec. The run of the belt could be a problem with belly tanks .